Talk:Enoch Powell

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Enoch Powell is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 28, 2006	Featured article candidate	Not promoted

Politics of the United Kingdom High‑importance

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Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

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Section sizes

Section size for Enoch Powell (41 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	8,060	8,060
Early years	2,140	2,140
Education	7,749	7,749
Academic career	6,015	6,015
Military service	4,154	4,154
Entry into politics	2,082	7,678
First years as a backbencher	5,596	5,596
In and out of office	25	13,974
Junior Housing Minister	1,595	1,595
Financial Secretary to the Treasury	4,719	4,719
Hola Massacre speech	2,006	2,006
Minister of Health	5,629	5,629
1960s	12	8,692
Leadership elections	2,900	2,900
Shadow Defence Secretary	5,780	5,780
National figure	22	25,276
1968 "Rivers of Blood" speech	7,203	7,203
'Morecambe Budget'	1,430	1,430
House of Lords reform	4,434	4,434
Departure from the Conservative Party	12,187	12,187
Ulster Unionist	22	42,935
1974–1979	7,656	7,656
1979–1982	8,507	8,507
Falklands conflict	12,180	12,180
1983 general election	4,639	4,639
1983–1987	9,931	9,931
Post-parliamentary life	30	10,755
1987–1992	10,725	10,725
Final years	7,678	7,678
Death	4,120	4,120
Personal life	7,855	7,855
Political beliefs	12,182	12,182
Legacy	3,096	3,096
Works	5,484	5,484
Elections contested	2,165	2,165
See also	37	37
References	28	28
Notes	34	34
Bibliography	2,222	2,222
Further reading	431	431
External links	5,346	5,346
Total	188,106	188,106

Tags on current article, Jan 2025

I would say that the article looks pretty fully referenced. Not sure there is a need for a cn header tag. If someone wants a legacy section, they should write it and add refs. Anna (talk) 19:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are 29 {{citation needed}} tags. Why start a new section when there's one already opened about this? Kowal2701 (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Because I am trying to review all the current header tags and explain my edits. The current article size is 21k words. WP:SIZERULE suggests that 15k is excessive, so, yes, the articles should be reduced for readability. I would probably argue that 29 cn tags in a article of this length doesn't require a header tag. I would also suggest taking off the 'need of legacy' section as someone should just write it. Anna (talk) 20:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on tag regarding legacy, I can write it but it might be in a few months time. Idk I think 29 cn tags is quite a lot considering there are big paragraphs completely uncited covered by a single tag, but in light of that if you still think it should be removed feel free to do so. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cites are not technically required on every piece of article info. There is a tag on "the family moved to Kings Norton". Is anyone really disputing this or likely to? "Wikipedia's verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged". WP:CITE. Anna (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think someone is likely to challenge that if the article was to develop further and come under closer scrutiny. Per WP:USI Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines require all information to be citable to sources. When information is unsourced, and it is doubtful any sources are available for the information, it can be boldly removed. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Fwiw, I find it pretty unusual for this kind of biographical detail to turn out to be untrue or unsourcable, unless it's been intentionally vandalised. Anna (talk) 21:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s very unlikely it’s intentionally wrong, but it can happen that a source gets mistakenly misrepresented. But at this stage and per WP:PERFECTION it’s okay Kowal2701 (talk) 21:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The move to Kings Norton in 1918 is mentioned on p37 of Patrick Cosgrave "The Lives of Enoch Powell". I'm not going to bloat the bibliography for just this minor detail. I'm sure it's mentioned in the Shepherd and Heffer biogs so I'm leaving this here for the moment.Paulturtle (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"remains a divisive figure in the UK"

Ah, the vaunted Wikipedia 'neutrality'. ROFL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.192.187 (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Admire the man or not, I wouldn't say this is in any way a controversial statement. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Anna (talk) 20:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

University crush?

It seems like tittle tattle and non-encylopedic to detail a supposed, unidentified university crush; hearsay that someone possibly once mentioned to someone else. In my view its inclusion doesn't benefit the serious article. The section also includes WP:SYNTH. As the article is currently twice the recommended length I would vote to remove this section.

"According to Michael Bloch, in his old age, Powell confessed to Canon Eric James, a former Trinity College chaplain, that he had been in love with a fellow male undergraduate at Cambridge, whom Bloch identifies as "probably Edward Curtis of Clare College", and that this infatuation had inspired love verses published in his First Poems. This confession was revealed by Canon James in a letter to The Times on 10 February 1998.[259] Following his appointment as Professor of Greek at the University of Sydney in 1937, he wrote to his parents that he was repelled by his female students, while feeling "an instant and instinctive affection" for young Australian males. This, he added, might be "deplored, but it cannot be altered", and it therefore had to be "endured – and (alas!) camouflaged." The letters are now in the Churchill College Archives.[260]" Anna (talk) 21:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Enoch Powell and the Making of Postcolonial Britain pg 10 says there were questions regarding Powell's apparently repressed homosexuality, I think it's probably due a sentence in Personal life but we don't need the details Kowal2701 (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Questions" seem a bit week for an inclusion, to me. 22:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not hearsay - it's what somebody went on the record as having been told by Powell, namely that he had been in love with another young man and that this had inspired some of his early poems. The youthful Powell's lack of experience of women, after living a very monastic life, was generally remarked on in older biographies, including his reluctance to interact with female students in Sydney. There was also a fair bit of discussion when the real fat biographies were published in the mid to late Nineties. Shepherd as I recall discussed his youthful homosexual inclinations along with his abortive courtship of a woman called Barbara in the late 1940s who was still alive and giving interviews then. She was his first sort-of girlfriend when he was in his late thirties, and he didn't take rejection well. He was blamelessly married from 1952 onwards.Paulturtle (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Given how prominently involved he was in public discourse on homosexuality, I think it creeps in. Plenty of biographies speculate about their subject's sexuality Kowal2701 (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Article Split

Flicking through some biographies, 1963 looks about the right place for an article split (a third to half way through said books). The current article is a bit skewed by the enormous amount of direct quotation of Powell's opinions on various events, especially after 1979 when he was still active in public life but no longer a serious power-broker. Paulturtle (talk) 05:33, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was in the process of condensing the article a bit and putting some of the quotes in to footnotes, to at least make the main article more readable of the general reader. I got ill, so not all the article is done. I can continue the process. Editors here have expressed appreciation for the extant article, long as it is. I'm not sure I have encountered a biog that is split in the middle. To me it would seem like a shame. Anna (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe split some off into Political career of Enoch Powell, like we do with Political career of Donald Trump, Political career of Silvio Berlusconi, and Political career of Abraham Lincoln (1849–1861). Could also have Views of Enoch Powell as another child article, like we have Views of Elon Musk, Views of Kanye West, and Views of Richard Dawkins. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]